Flipping the script with Shawna Ohm

This week we’re venturing into new territory: Our first guest host. Content 151’s Shawna Ohm joins the podcast to grill Morgan about his upcoming book “Don’t Die at Your Desk.” The conversation ranges from:

• Why Morgan felt compelled to write this book now
• The push and pull of big picture questions, like the purpose and legacy of what you’re building… versus the day-to-day questions like who to hire first
• How Morgan found his purpose working with entrepreneurs, and how he hopes this book can help create even more value for that key audience.

If you enjoyed the conversation, make sure you like and subscribe so you can be the first to get updates about the book’s publish and pre-order date.

Plus, let us know what you think of the guest host format—is this something we should do again?!


You can learn more about Shawna and her work by visiting her company’s website www.Content151.com or connecting with her on LinkedIn.

Thank you for listening!

Visit my website to learn more www.MorganRanstrom.com... or keep up with the latest via social media:

LinkedIn, Instagram, YouTube, Facebook, and X. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:03

All right, welcome back to Morgan on Purpose, the podcast. Uh, this is an exciting one for me because I'm going to hand over the reins uh to someone else, right? So, our first guest host, first time ever, uh Shauna Ohm of Content151. Uh, that's a marketing agency that specializes in working with financial advisors and financial services firms like mine. Uh, Shauna is going to interview me instead of the other way around. Also, Shauna's a business owner. We like to talk about business owners. So, anyways, welcome, Shauna.

SPEAKER_01 0:39

It is so great to be here. Um, and I think we should probably get right into why I'm here interviewing you, because that's, I'm sure people are wondering that. And it's that you have an upcoming book coming out, Don't Die at Your Desk. And that I have the absolute pleasure of reading an early draft of it.

SPEAKER_00 0:58

I think you were maybe the first person to read it, you know, outside of like a few notes here or there to read the full copy or the full like initial manuscript. So thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:08

I mean, look, that's hugely flattering, not just because it was so good, but because as a business owner, like I needed to read this book. And I talk to you all the time. And there was still so much stuff in here that I just really needed to read. So if you are out there listening to the pod, make sure you're subscribed to all things Morgan on purpose because you you are going to want to get an update on when it's available for pre-order. It it genuinely is really good, which like Morgan, thank you for writing a really good book because it makes my job of helping you market it a lot easier. If it had been bad, this would be really awkward for everyone.

SPEAKER_00 1:40

You should know that Shauna's a world traveler and she brought my she has brought my first book, Money with Purpose, all over the world. My first book has been to Antarctica and Africa only because of Shauna.

SPEAKER_01 1:51

Um the second book is also currently in Africa. I should take it to the penguins with me. Um, but I think one of the interesting parts about this book um that you said before is that you didn't just write the a book to like lecture people. You wrote the book that that you needed to read yourself. So for everyone out there listening, like what problem were you solving for for when you kind of sat down and decided to write this?

SPEAKER_00 2:17

Yeah, I I think, well, first and foremost, this is what I do, right? I I write things because I'm trying to work through them. And and then I write it down. I think if I'm trying to work through this, I bet someone else is as well, right? So I maybe I can help them uh by getting this out into the universe. Um I didn't come out of school wanting to be a business owner or thinking I was going to be an entrepreneur. Um I was a liberal arts major, right? I just wanted to travel. Um I had some ideas. Some of them included opening a business, let's say in South America or something like that. Uh, but it was never like, oh, I'm gonna be an entrepreneur, right? Like like some of those, uh it's called like the tech founder paradigm uh that has become pop culture. Um and I think at this point in my career, it it feels so obvious, right? It feels so obvious in hindsight. I'm a business owner. I love being a business owner. Um, I'm very entrepreneurial. I didn't know that while I was doing these things, right? When I was starting this journey or even in the middle of this journey, it's like I know it in hindsight. Um, but uh for most of this journey, I I didn't know what I was doing. And I and I've hit my head against so many walls over and over and over again. Uh and so once again, it's writing this book is me trying to make sense of that, A, and B trying to put together what are the lessons I've learned, right? What has helped me kind of get through this? And then, you know, what what what what's coming next? And so the second thing is taking all those hard-earned lessons um and trying to help other business owners and entrepreneurs uh navigate their own journey from founding to exit. Um, and then my theme is we want to do that with a greater sense of confidence and a deeper sense of purpose.

SPEAKER_01 4:14

One thing I really appreciate is that you there's so many tropes about being a business owner, just like there are so many tropes about money. And you spend a lot of time sort of examining this conventional wisdom about being an entrepreneur, about being a business owner. So whether it's delegating is how you grow, which we hear over and over and over again. And certainly there are some truths to that, or you hear you should be an S-corp because of tax savings, be an S-corp, be an S-corp, be an S-corp. Uh, solo K, solo K is like some of these, especially now with social media, you know, we're inundated with this um uh quotable advice, but you question some of these norms throughout the book. And I'm curious, sort of, why you did that and sort of what your takeaway is by doing that.

SPEAKER_00 5:00

Yeah, I think when we question these norms, it's not because the advice or conventional wisdom is wrong for any one person or business. Uh, it's because you need an approach that's customized for you and your sense of purpose, right? So, what is this business? What do you want? What are you building? Uh, what do you want out of it, right? And I think like let's take apart the S-corp thing where uh this feels like conventional wisdom that you as a business owner should form an S-corp because you'll save on taxes, right? Um and I think it's feels like conventional wisdom because it's an idea that's been marketed to you, right? It's all over Instagram, it's all over Twitter, it's all over YouTube. And is it wisdom or is it kind of a marketing tactic? Because frankly, if you form an S Corp, there's a little more complexity there, a little more tax complexity, right? So uh someone's kind of benefiting from these formations, and then obviously the ongoing administration uh of an S Corp. Nothing wrong with that. But you need something that's customized for you. For example, some trade-offs. Uh S Corp also results in much higher administrative costs. Um, forming an S-Corp may reduce uh your Social Security benefits in the future because you brought down wage income, right? Is that something you want? Were you aware of that trade-off?

SPEAKER_01 6:23

That was one that, like as someone who does this for a living, I didn't think about and was just sort of surprised by because so many Americans, you know, maybe we shouldn't be, but do count on social security as such a vast source of income. And as someone who creates content on like, this is how your social security is calculated, and whose business is an S-corp, it did not occur to me until reading your book, like, oh, I am jeopardizing my future earnings, which are essentially like an inflation-adjusted bond from the government, by creating this S-corp to save in taxes now. So, like it's little things like that where, you know, I don't know that I would change anything about it, but to at least have that in the back of my brain is really powerful.

SPEAKER_00 7:07

Yeah, there's really no free launches in any of this stuff. And so once again, it's like we're navigating trade-offs. And how do you navigate trade-offs? Well, you have to have a really solid understanding of once again, what's your current financial reality? And B, what do you want? What are you trying to get out of this? So um, if you shelter income from the government in a way uh to avoid Social Security taxation um or self-employment taxes, uh, that can be fine if you're kind of like A, if it's you're you're doing it in a legal way, and then B, um if you're actually taking that money and saving from it, right? Uh, but if you're not saving that, you're spending it. Um and that, you know, like even like thinking about cars and houses and stuff like that, that's just going into lifestyle, it is a that's a very self-destructive decision. And it's we don't assess that because we're looking at the current year savings, basically.

SPEAKER_01 8:04

Right. So when you tie it back to purpose, like, hey, why do you want these savings? Is it to invest in your business? Is it because you know you need to operate on a leaner structure for now, but you're planning for later? Like those questions make it help clarify some of the conventional wisdom.

SPEAKER_00 8:22

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And I think we're just talking about like entities. It's like, well, are you building to sell? Are you building to maximize profits? Are you building to uh run a small lifestyle business? All these things matter. And the more, the clearer you get on that, the clearer uh your plan becomes and and also what the best solution is for you.

SPEAKER_01 8:46

Well, you did just kind of steal the thunder to my next question, but we won't hold that against you. But that is that, you know, when you talk about don't die at your desk, you've really frame this up to kind of be about selling your business or how you exit your business. Um, but one of the things that you kind of point out is that not every business sells. And, you know, I sold my dad's business and he was the person who thought that he was gonna have to work till he was 90 because he never knew he needed to have an exit plan, right? So um, and what you talk about a lot is that you have to think about it in terms of selling your business, but that that's a thing that you need to be thinking about in your 20s, 30s, 40s, like not when it's time to sell. And so I'm curious if you can kind of just lean into a little bit of that, right? Like, why in this book about building your business did you frame it up from this sort of exit vantage point? Um, and and what does that tell people?

SPEAKER_00 9:38

Yeah, I think it's so one thing I believe just on a human level is that we have to see the end in the beginning, right? Um, and that applies to just how we live our life and the decisions we make. And it also applies to our business ownership journey where um you started this thing, you have this thing, it will not last forever, right? At some point you have to let it go. And I talk a lot about that in the book. At some point you're gonna have to let this go. Um, and so there's a level of detachment uh that must come along with this journey. Um, I don't want anybody to die at their desk, right? That that's the whole point of the book. Um, I want you to feel like you have freedom and options, um, and that you also navigate those successfully. Business owner ownership at its best, entrepreneurship at its best, is a rocket ship to freedom, right? The only reason for taking such a burden upon yourself as being a business owner is if you think there's more freedom on the other side, right? But so often we feel trapped by what we've built. And and I kind of assess that as like rocket ship to freedom. We're about to reach a skate philosophy, philosophy, but we we cling to the earth, right? We cling to what makes us feel comfortable. We cling to maybe I do all the work, right? Or going back to the delegation point, I never learn to delegate, or I get caught up in this tax strategy or that tax strategy, and I forget that the whole purpose is to make money and grow, right? Um so we fail to escape to reach escape velocity, um and we kind of fail to create the freedom that we intended for in the first place, right? And so once again, like coming back to business or or purpose, like why did you do this thing? What freedom are you trying to achieve? If it's well, you know, I was in a soul-crushing job working 70 hours a week, uh, and then you go start your new business and you're working 70 hours a week, you know, it just happens to be not for a boss. That might feel good for a little while, but at some point I think the freedom you were aching for probably isn't in the business ownership either. It was just like trying to create a better job for yourself or more boundaries, and you didn't even give yourself those boundaries, right? Um and that's where kind of the lessons of what are you building? What's the end in this? What are you trying to achieve? Does that involve more people? Um, does that involve doing different things? Does that involve more time with your family? Uh, retiring early, perhaps? Does that involve like making sure that you're in a position that you can do this for as long as you want to, which I think is great too? Like if the goal is to die at your desk because you're so dang happy, like fantastic. Warren Buffett just retired at age 95 from the CEO role. Wonderful. He's still the chairman of the board, right? Um, and I think anybody who's read anything that Warren Buffett says knows that his purpose is very much attached to everything Berkshire Hathaway, um, and analyzing companies and all that fun stuff.

SPEAKER_01 12:50

So the only thing Warren Buffett loves more than analyzing companies is Cherry Coke.

SPEAKER_00 12:55

It's so true. So, so true.

SPEAKER_01 12:57

Um there's a there's a big current event example that I keep thinking about when you're talking about this, which is the Artemis mission that just kind of grabbed everyone's attention going around the moon recently, which is that everything went seamlessly until they got back to Earth and then they had a communications failure, where it's like the the tools that are going to get you further than any man has or woman has ever gone in space are not the same tools that are going to get back, get you back to Earth separately. So it's like you have to kind of plan for those. And you do a really great job throughout the book of I think including really important historical examples that make it really relatable for people. So, like, you know, everyone knows Alexander the Great in terms of expanding his empire, but you know, he was dead in his 30s and it all fell apart. Whereas maybe fewer people know Sir Christopher Wren. I do, because uh he made a very important building at my college.

SPEAKER_00 13:46

But you're the type who would know.

SPEAKER_01 13:48

Yeah, you're the type who I mean, look, the Ren building is where I graduated college, but you know, he built St. Paul's Cathedral or rebuilt St. Paul's Cathedral, and that is a huge monument that how many tourists visit every year to this day. Um, and maybe they don't know his name, but they know his work. So it's sort of, you know, what are you trying to build? And you do such a good job, I think, of helping people understand this in in 18 or 20 different frameworks in terms of examples.

SPEAKER_00 14:14

Timeless questions of like what comes next, right? And and within that, what comes next? Frankly, we're all wrestling with our mortality.

SPEAKER_01 14:25

I mean, there's just that way deeper.

SPEAKER_00 14:27

I know, I know, and it's like, but that's that's why it's timeless, right? So we can go back thousands of years and we see all these stories. And I tried to pull some of those out. You mentioned Alexander the Great, and he he was a growth leader, right? He's a growth leader. Um, and he grows so far that there really is no structure holding what he has built or pieced together together. And so he, on an untimely basis, he he dies and the emperor, the empire falls apart immediately. And I think like the more I read about that story and thought about it, and especially in this context, can we even call what he built an empire? Is it an empire if it falls apart immediately upon the uh death or separation from the leader? Right. And I and like so many businesses, I would say most businesses can't survive a day, let alone a week, let alone longer than that, um, without the founder uh at the helm, right? And so it's like, can you even call that a business if you need constant attention and energy just to keep it running?

SPEAKER_01 15:34

Well, I mean, look, we're both fake succession fans, and I know we talk about this a lot, but that show is like a perfect example of that. Like it could not survive without Brian Cox pulling, and I know he has an actual character name, but he's Brian Cox, pulling the strings. Um, that's sort of the moral of the story. Or even if you want a real life example, you know, Jack Welch built GE into this conglomerate in the 80s that made so much money. And basically the next, and everyone still reveres him as a giant business leader, but basically the next 30 years were spent dismantling all of it because none of it made any sense together. Um, so like what was the purpose of that? Was the purpose just to make money? Was the purpose to build a company that actually worked together and and made sense? So, I mean, I guess to to tie it back to the framework that you were working on in your book is that you start out by saying you want people to build a business that they that will be very sellable, but that you and you want them to build a business that that will get top price and that they will want to sell, but you, but that then that they don't want to walk away from, but they're gonna sell it anyway. Um so like why that framework, right? Given the difficulty of selling, given the difficulty of building, like why pick that sort of construct?

SPEAKER_00 16:49

I think it's look, like a few stats. So 70 to 80% of businesses don't sell, right? So they're going to market and they're they're not selling. Okay. Uh 30% of family businesses don't go to the second generation, right? Uh and then, and I I find this one to be frankly demoralizing. Uh 75% of business owners regret selling one year after the sale. They regret selling. So, so even when they sell, they regret it. And that is so sad to me. It's so sad. And I think you'd look at that and you'd say, well, don't sell. Okay. And that's that's a fine approach for a couple years, right? But we'd also have to unpack like what they're actually sad about, right? And I don't have that data, but I do have lots of anecdotes and my own my own sense of why that might be. Um so it might be pricing on some level, right? It might be. I'm sure I'm sure that's part of it. My guess is it's because they didn't have a plan for what comes next, right? And if you don't have a plan for what comes next, it means you you've never really detached from your identity as business owner. Um you've never thought through uh, well, what am I gonna do? Even if you sell for millions and millions and millions of dollars, and I've got some stories about this, like what are you gonna do? How do you spend your time? What gives you meaning? What gives you purpose? Right? Well, of course you regret selling if this thing that gave you a lot of meaning in your day-to-day life is not there anymore, and you had no concept of what to do to replace that, right? Or what was beneath that, frankly. Um so if we kind of continue along, most business owners don't have a written exit plan. Most business owners, and I think it's like 78%, don't have a team of professionals put together to help them navigate an exit or explore their options. Uh most business owners don't even know what their sales options are. And so it's like, okay, we want to sell, right? We all kind of dream of this glamorous exit, but we've done absolutely nothing to plan for it or think about it. And and I think the reason why I talk about this in in like this journey with this sale at the end, uh isn't because I think every business needs to sell necessarily or it like that a sale makes a business successful, right? Plenty of businesses will just be shut down and and that's great. That can be really a really successful process um because they got to run a business and kind of like I said, explore freedom their way. But the fact that you will leave your business is inevitable. You will leave it one way or the other, right? And so you can kind of take some control over this process and have agency in the process um by planning now or not. But if you don't plan for it, it doesn't mean that you just get to keep running your business, right? Things fall apart, right? And they death, disability, divorce, um, you know, changing uh, you know, economic environment, all this stuff. Um, you gotta start planning for these transitions right now.

SPEAKER_01 20:09

I mean, if there's one thing I've learned about business owners, it's that we like control, right? Like we're building a business because we want to be our own boss, because we want to control things. So it's it's always ironic that we take a step back and decide not to control things that are as important as, you know, the exit or the estate plan or any of those things, because everything else really is control.

SPEAKER_00 20:30

And well, it's the flip of that, right? So the flip of that is like, so we we clearly like control on some level, um, but exploring anything that is out of our control makes us feel very vulnerable.

unknown 20:44

Right.

SPEAKER_00 20:45

And it's like, I don't want to I I go to work to like have fun and do my job that I create for myself, and that's that's really fun. I don't want to like go to work and explore how vulnerable I actually am.

SPEAKER_01 20:56

Um that doesn't that doesn't sound fun to you going and talking about your insecurities and vulnerable.

SPEAKER_00 21:01

Yeah, weird.

SPEAKER_01 21:02

Well, okay, so I think one of the reasons that this book is so powerful, but also working with an advisor is so powerful that the work you do is powerful and and why I like getting to be a part of it, is that you really balance some of these bigger philosophical questions, right? Of um casual things we've discussed today, like the fact that we're all gonna die and then we're all gonna have to exit our business, but with like the practical realities of like how to talk about those things with your business partners and your spouses, like how to hire people to kind of offset some of this. And so one of the things that you get into a lot in your book, which gets to also some of these conventional wisdom things, is about delegating, right? And who these key hires are. And that maybe it's not just hiring a person, but it's it's hiring them and empowering them. Um but before I bite off more than I can chew, because I think we could do a full podcast just on that. Um, you know, you talk about key hires. So a virtual assistant is a really big one. Uh, a CPA or an accountant is also really high on your. List, but there are another a number of other ones that you talk about, like an executive or a business coach or a fractional CFO. My personal favorite is hiring someone to do your marketing. But I'm curious if you can kind of dive into this idea of how you help business owners think about a hiring plan, regardless of what stage they're in. If you know if they're just starting out and preparing to make it sellable, if they are at the point where they need to build a business that exists without them, like how do you figure out those key hires and then pick the right people?

SPEAKER_00 22:33

Most business owners I know, myself included, uh the early years, and when I say early years, this might be a decade, right? It could be two years, it could be a decade, it could be longer. You're wearing every hat, right? To kind of use a metaphor, an overused metaphor, but you're wearing every hat. You're doing everything in the business. You are the finance department, you are the sales department, right? You are operations, you are customer service. And that's that's inevitable. Okay. Um what happens though, it's that classic, what got you here won't get you there. Uh you don't get to get to the next stage of freedom and growth or potential sale by wearing every hat. And and I think like when we say let's just delegate, right? Or hire some professionals, it almost minimizes how um hard that shift is. And and I think also it's like we fall into the trap of like, well, if I can do it myself, I should. Okay. Like if I can file my own taxes, I should. If I can uh, you know, you know, run my own marketing campaign, I should. But I think what we're coming to is uh it's about ownership. Like that's the way I frame it. It's about ownership, right? So I don't care if like technology can do it. If you own it, if it's coming back to you, it's still mental drain. It's still mental drain. Um, and you're gonna have to take time to assess those uh those programs or those systems or whatever, and you're you're kind of responsible for them. Now I know the buck always stops with the owner, and that's fine, but once you start putting a team in place, you want I talk to my team about this all the time. It's like, I want you all to own this, right? If I have to keep thinking about it and closing the loops myself, we're not doing it right, right? We like something's wrong with the system because I need my focus over here, and I need to have my team have uh like full agency, right? They need they got the agency to take it from start to finish. And then obviously we we report to each other, we talk about there's dialogue, what do we need to fix? What can we do better? What's working? Like that's all healthy process, but I that agency part is so important.

SPEAKER_01 24:45

Which by the way, yeah, makes you an ideal client, right? Like, I think more people like if you are the person on the other end of that and you're working with someone, having someone say to you, like, I trust you to do this because it's your area of expertise, is a really huge vote of confidence, whether you're the employee or the consultant or the whatever else. Like that is, and you talked about that recently on a podcast with Coach Amelia. Like that, that is a it's not just for you, it helps the other person too.

SPEAKER_00 25:13

Yeah. And I think it it kind of comes back to this, especially internally. When I I was talking to a team member the other day of like everybody here has their own heroic journey, right? This isn't just my journey or my partner's journey or whatever. It's like you have your journey, and that may be here and it may be elsewhere ultimately. Uh, but it's like on a human level, I want them to explore that and live it, right? I don't want to compel them to kind of just like live this predefined thing, right? And I also won't have all the answers. And I think that kind of comes back to delegating of uh the more I control, uh we won't get as far, right? The more I delegate, but hire great people who uh have a developed sense of agency, the farther we're gonna go because they can go farther on that with their passion and enthusiasm and stuff. So uh I think we limit ourselves. And I think professionals is like a great way of exploring this too of like you get a great attorney, wealth advisor, focused on business owners. You get a great uh business consultant. Um you just go so much farther because you have fantastic insight from knowledgeable professionals who know arenas and like kind of live and breed this stuff when you don't. You should be focused on your business and your family and like your purpose, right? You don't need to go learn all the legal dynamics just because you think you can work through it on Chat GPT, frankly.

SPEAKER_01 26:36

One thing that you talk a bit about in this book and that I feel very privileged to have kind of seen evolve over many, many years, um, is sort of your journey towards specializing and working with business owners. And I, you know, one of the reasons I love seeing it is because I can kind of relate to it growing up from a family of entrepreneurs, um, and how you kind of decided that this is where you thrive. This is where you're able to offer the most value to your clients, um, focusing on not just helping entrepreneurs and business owners, but you know, business owners who are on both sides of the mountain, as you call it. So I'm curious if we could kind of wrap this up by you explaining a little bit of sort of how you got here and how you found this niche, because I do think that's something a lot of business owners struggle with.

SPEAKER_00 27:21

Yeah. I mean, I I think like I think because I was so close to business ownership and entrepreneurialism growing up, it almost felt further away from me, right? I never really assessed it as something that was different. And I say that because I grew up with an entrepreneur father. Um, I worked in his business going back to like junior high, filing stuff. And uh I remember moving offices with it for him for with friends, um, worked for him in you know, off and on in high school, uh college summer or two, um, and then eventually worked there for a decade in my in my 20s uh before ultimately starting Traillight Planners, which is the current business. Um and I think it's all say it's like so I've I've been so close to entrepreneur family member. Um by the way, family goes back to farming, which I always think is like the ultimate entrepreneur uh endeavor. Uh so that's kind of in my bloodline too. Um but I was so close to entrepreneurialism and uh watched him a lot, right? Watched other business owners. I was around a lot, uh, was part of a sale, founded this business, I've gone through partnership transitions, I've like started other things, I've done uh uh music records, I've written books, right? These are all entrepreneurial things. And and I think as I started to reflect on that, more so after having kids, I realized that I was having this like uh Pinocchio syndrome. Like I'm not a real boy, you know, I'm not a real business owner. It's like, well, how how are you not a real business owner? You literally own uh a business and and kind of do like other entrepreneurial activities. How are you not uh a real boy? And uh I just watched the the Tom Hanks version with my kids recently, and you never really see Pinocchio like transition externally, but he has this internal transition, right? So it's not like the the original Disney version. He has this like internal transition. And I feel like at some point it was like either I accept this or I don't. I have to accept this identity shift. And as I accepted that identity shift, I am an entrepreneur, I am a business owner. And uh, though we work with many different types of people, retiree, retirees, family wealth, inheritors, all that stuff, and I love that work. Uh I have a lot to offer business owners in particular because of my story, because I relate to them, because I am this. And I come at it both with that personal story and with a lot of expertise and experience on the financial side. So that's that's kind of where this shift happened. And I think uh the result of that is uh, you know, I think the great work we're doing from business owners, setting up virtual family offices for them, um, helping them with their big uh financial decisions, both in the business and as it kind of translates to family. Uh, and then the other result is this book, which I'm really proud of at this point.

SPEAKER_01 30:15

Well, I mean, look, Morgan, I'll let you do the final wrap-up and the goodbyes since it is your podcast after all. But I mean, your book and just this podcast in general, like the advice that you give business owners across the board, whether it's on mindset and the importance of being creative or on the technical stuff, like how you kind of incorporate how to hire, how to think about an exit. Um, you know, and and I don't say this lightly, as a business owner who talks to financial advisors all the time, I always learn something from our conversations. So if you are a listener out there, or even if you're just discovering Morgan, subscribe across the board and definitely pre-order his book when that's available because you really don't want to miss it. And then I am not just saying that because he called working with me transformational in the book. Um, it is really truly that fantastic. Like, you know, I every page nearly is highlighted with something that I marked as a takeaway. So I will hand it back to you so you can say goodbye to your own guests. But thank you for having me on to kind of grill you about this and about the word of the insane amount of research and heart and soul that you put into this work.

SPEAKER_00 31:23

Yeah. So now we now we outed who I was talking about with uh my my marketing consultant that I hired. So um, but 100% worth it. Thank you, Shauna. Um, thank you for joining us as our first guest host. It's a big deal. We appreciate it. It was only mildly traumatic, right? And uh thanks to our listeners. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Anything that that reflects poorly on me, I will cut out. Yeah. But this time it'd be it'd be Shauna's Shauna's team doing the cutting, so I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 31:55

They'll probably make her look uh No, no, you still pay us to make you look good. That's why you know that you hired the right people, right? Exactly. My team will throw me under the bus in a second and make you look good.

SPEAKER_00 32:05

Anyways, if you're listening, we'd love to know what you think of this format. It's really fun for us. Um, and we'll we'll probably do it again soon. Um, and uh, and as Shauna said, uh, yeah, please subscribe. Um, you get a preview of uh and updates about the upcoming book, Don't Die at Your Desk. Um, we'll have a publishing date soon. We're kind of working through uh some final edits and drafts right now. Um but that'll be heading your way later this year. Thank you.